tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post8907713815770738966..comments2024-02-23T15:34:32.816-05:00Comments on The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog: 100% Lactobacillus Berliner WeisseThe Mad Fermentationist (Mike)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-63083581913946633912017-08-10T21:38:39.360-04:002017-08-10T21:38:39.360-04:00Yep, if you go through the comments you'll see...Yep, if you go through the comments you'll see similar discussion about yeast, experiments etc. I've learned quite a bit in the five years since writing this post!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-91040431346069502572017-08-10T10:48:16.791-04:002017-08-10T10:48:16.791-04:00I’ve investigated 100% bacteria fermentation and i...I’ve investigated 100% bacteria fermentation and it’s not possible to ferment wort, getting something you would call beer, by only fermenting with bacteria (like WLP677). Bacteria is not producing enough alcohol during fermentation and you’ll get only a small drop in gravity. <br />I’ve confirmed that with White Labs and a microbiologist.<br />So, how did the original poster have success with a 100% bacteria fermentation?<br />a.) The White Labs vial had some yeast in it. That’s a valid possibility as they did not use Pure Pitch packaging back in the day.<br />OR<br />b.) Wild yeast, or other yeast came in contact with the wort<br />One thing is sure, there was some yeast involved.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-66012515245948927172016-09-19T18:54:34.618-04:002016-09-19T18:54:34.618-04:00Make a small starter without hops. Lacto grows qui...Make a small starter without hops. Lacto grows quickly so no need for more than a cup or two. I'd just pitch it directly rather than try to decant (Lactobacillus doesn't flocculate like brewer's yeast).The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-1583421622299103022016-09-18T21:11:36.719-04:002016-09-18T21:11:36.719-04:00Gonna try WLP672 in kettle sour Berliner Weisse. ...Gonna try WLP672 in kettle sour Berliner Weisse. Any advice on the lacto starter? Do I make this the same way as any other starter except crank the temp to 100 degrees or so? After 24-36 hours, can I stick in the fridge overnight and decant as I would for yeast, or no?<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />MilesMilesMcLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03086145152223020125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-55123404332135825892016-03-08T20:17:22.737-05:002016-03-08T20:17:22.737-05:00As I responded by email (but for other's benef...As I responded by email (but for other's benefit): I don't worry too much about pitching rate. For a large commercial brewery it could be worthwhile to investigate how to shave off aging time, but I don't mind waiting a little longer. You won't get the flavor changes that Sacch pitching rates provide (at least not within a couple orders of magnitude). I worry more about the viability of the microbes.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-60485388365280448852016-03-08T16:29:36.904-05:002016-03-08T16:29:36.904-05:00I'm planning on doing a lacto (possibly a Pedi...I'm planning on doing a lacto (possibly a Pedio mix?) and Brett mixed culture secondary fermentation in a used wine or spirit barrel. The beer will prob be around 3-5 P going into the barrel. I have found some info on pitch rate for Brett, but most of the pitch rates for bacteria are anecdotal. Do you happen to know any pitch rates per wooden barrel that you would suggest adding from an active bacteria starter? I read in your awesome American Sour book that Tomme A from lost abbey uses a 1.25L starter to his beers. However, from a cell count point of view, how much should I really be adding to get the best result?Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09140913013427206301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-29820232427042938592016-02-13T10:05:07.137-05:002016-02-13T10:05:07.137-05:00Yep, I probably should have linked Lance's exp...Yep, I probably should have linked Lance's experiment here when he sent it to me last year. That's always the issue with a blog, it's a snapshot of my understanding when I write a post!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-69023157570185548652016-02-11T11:12:55.660-05:002016-02-11T11:12:55.660-05:00FWIW, I definitely think this is worth reading, wh...FWIW, I definitely think this is worth reading, which says that no pure lacto culture is going to get close to a complete fermentation of wort.<br /><br />http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/100%25_Lactobacillus_Fermentationrrenaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00268587839942674447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-18171057679693998022015-09-02T09:07:41.178-04:002015-09-02T09:07:41.178-04:00I used wyeast 5335 rather than grain. I've bee...I used wyeast 5335 rather than grain. I've been keeping it around 82 degrees based on something else I read, but I just saw your book recommends 110 degrees. The pH was at 4.1 after 48 hours. Thanks for your help!Karahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16712192061675655287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-16081721925384745932015-09-01T21:55:35.437-04:002015-09-01T21:55:35.437-04:00Without more details it is hard to say with any ce...Without more details it is hard to say with any certainty. Did you make a starter from grain? What temperature are you holding it at? Lacto doesn't have the aggressive CO2 production, krausen, or gravity drop of yeast, so it can be tricky to know for sure what is going on without a pH reading.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-46900459549986760152015-09-01T19:56:55.795-04:002015-09-01T19:56:55.795-04:00Should you be able to see any activity happening i...Should you be able to see any activity happening in the flask of a lacto starter after 48 hours? I don't see anything going on. I guess I should've taken a gravity reading at the start?<br />This is my first attempt at a lacto starter :)Karahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16712192061675655287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-8493221885305691462015-06-06T21:04:15.550-04:002015-06-06T21:04:15.550-04:00I should have been more careful. Its definitely b...I should have been more careful. Its definitely been a learning experience. But I have found that when something gets screwed up its usually a happy accident and creates something amazing and totally unexpected. Thanks for the feedback. <br />pink1212https://www.blogger.com/profile/05732198987470165797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-92002239643689957852015-06-06T15:00:07.630-04:002015-06-06T15:00:07.630-04:00Lacto is so quick, it doesn't take many cells ...Lacto is so quick, it doesn't take many cells to cause serious problems. You'd need to thoroughly clean all the gear (soak in hot water and PBW/Oxiclean) and then sanitize. Ideally you'd have a set for the souring, and one for after pasteurizing. At this stage you may just be better off letting the Lacto live, unless you are worried about contaminating your bottling gear?The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-704584505654356092015-06-06T11:07:05.218-04:002015-06-06T11:07:05.218-04:00I have recently attempted to make a Berliner Weiss...I have recently attempted to make a Berliner Weiss. I made a lacto starter off of some pale malt and pitched in to pasteurized wort for 4 days and came out with a crazy lemony sour wort. I then boiled and added hops while during that time I sanitized the glass wide-mouth carboy I had been using. I then racked it back into the carboy and added yeast. I tasted it the other day and it is quite good. <br /><br />My problem now is that it has formed a pellicle within a couple of days since pulling off a sample. Obviously I got oxygen in the head space and obviously their is still live lacto in the beer. So I guess I will put it back on the burner to try and kill of the lacto....again<br /><br />So I apparently did not sanitize my carboy thoroughly enough. What suggestions do you have to get this thing clean? I assume running it through the dishwasher and using the heat drying on it would sterilize it? Thoughts? <br />pink1212https://www.blogger.com/profile/05732198987470165797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-70983252491991501692015-05-04T13:26:06.834-04:002015-05-04T13:26:06.834-04:00Been following along with this thread / your book ...Been following along with this thread / your book trying my hand at my first berliner, and thought I'd share my findings. <br /><br />I used the WLP677 (1L starter), and had WLP005 as a backup. After 3 days the WLP677 had fermented down to my target gravity, so I never pitched the 005. I have a reptile heater wrapped around the carboy, and I have it all wrapped in blankets. Infrared thermometer puts it at about 95. When I took gravity after 3 days, there was almost no sourness at all. I decided to just let it sit with the reptile heater until who knows when. Now, after just over a week I took a sample again. The sourness has definitely started to develop (it's not INTENSELY sour yet, but i've definitely had berliners with less sour character). <br /><br />I'm going to let it sit like this for a while and see what happens. I'll post back with more findings!<br /><br />Does anyone see any issues with me maintaining these temperatures for prolonged periods of time?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02637577837241823833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-29475237386414037412015-04-03T21:30:24.656-04:002015-04-03T21:30:24.656-04:00There is no harm in some insurance yeast, but I us...There is no harm in some insurance yeast, but I usually don't re-yeast my Berliners. If nothing else, the Brett in mine will carbonate. Wine/Champagne has worked well for other sour beers, not a bad choice at all.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-75118551906521980572015-03-25T17:33:59.356-04:002015-03-25T17:33:59.356-04:00Hi Mike, a month on and the sourness has started t...Hi Mike, a month on and the sourness has started to develop nicely so I guess patience is a virtue...<br /><br />I'm going to bottle it in the next few weeks and am hoping for some guidance again. Should I add yeast at bottling or just allow a longer conditioning period. I'm worried that the yeast remaining in the beer may not be up to it. Is there a recommended wine or champagne yeast or does that not really matter? Thanks again.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18194035715037055257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-9063090186124752382015-02-21T16:09:42.870-05:002015-02-21T16:09:42.870-05:00Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I...Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. I figured there was something up. Will try again with one of the brevis cultures in a proper starter. I'll let you know how it turns out. Cheers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18194035715037055257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-72832630404576636962015-02-20T18:21:30.184-05:002015-02-20T18:21:30.184-05:00Sounds like you may have had Kristen's ratio b...Sounds like you may have had Kristen's ratio backwards? He suggests 5:1 in favor of the bacteria. Wyeast packs about 15 billion cells fresh, 5 g of dried US-05 will have about 5 times that amount. With that said, Lacto can grow very quickly, so I'm less concerned with the ratio than having the Lacto ready to start fermenting when pitched (i.e., in an active starter).<br /><br />With the gravity already down to 1.004, odds are you won't get a lot more acidity. Might make a nice base for a fruit beer though!<br /><br />Next time I'd opt for a more aggressive Lacto strain. I've had much better luck with the L. brevis cultures than either of the "stock" strains from Wyeast or White Labs.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-80263607886742394712015-02-20T00:54:49.198-05:002015-02-20T00:54:49.198-05:00Hi, I've had a crack at brewing one of these a...Hi, I've had a crack at brewing one of these an have found that now after a few weeks the beer has reduced from 1.032 to 1.004, but there is no obvious sourness in the flavour. I pitched a full packet of wyeast 5335 and 5 grams of US-05 which would have provided the 5:1 ratio. I didn't use a starter for the lacto and didn't rehydrate the yeast. I figured the lacto would have been in good condition and was happy for the yeast to catch up (perhaps I should have made a starter for the lacto). From what I have read I expected a more obvious sourness even after only a couple of weeks. Do you think the sourness will increase over time? Since it's such a cheap beer to brew I'd rather start again than wait months to find it hasn't changed. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18194035715037055257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-22091738412247758732014-08-20T23:33:33.082-04:002014-08-20T23:33:33.082-04:00Great article and great comment thread! I thought ...Great article and great comment thread! I thought I'd add my experience with a 100% lacto BW to this as well seeing all the comments in this thread have helped my greatly.<br /><br />Wyeast 5223 Lactobacillus Brevis attenuates and sours really well! I was shocked that after one week my gravity was down from 1.031 to 1.005 and the beer had a nice level of sourness. Not puckering but well balanced.<br /><br />I pitched a lacto starter that had been at around 86 and fermented the beer at 86 for a while before pushing it up to 91. I had been planning to pitch some ale yeast into this beer but by the time I was going to pitch the yeast the beer had already fermented out and tasted great.<br /><br />I have a feeling that pitching an ale yeast after the lacto has been fermenting for a couple of days may make a BW with this lacto a little bit short on the sourness but each to their own.<br /><br />I am bottling today and am fairly wary of how much priming sugar to go with as I'm unsure whether L. brevis will produce a similar amount of CO2 or not... interesting experiment though and my kegging system will be together soon anyway.<br /><br />Thanks for all the help!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08620089501046743288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-15726911174098238612014-08-17T12:20:01.711-04:002014-08-17T12:20:01.711-04:00Thanks for the feedback Mike. I ordered a pack of...Thanks for the feedback Mike. I ordered a pack of L. Brevis. I plan on making a starter and pitching the L. Brevis at about 95F. Then 2 days later pitch a starter of Wyeast German Ale yeast. Then when fermentation slows I am going to also pitch a vial of Brett L.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05945335342975213575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-36950741555765810832014-08-15T12:09:09.097-04:002014-08-15T12:09:09.097-04:00Considering the complaints I keep hearing about 67...Considering the complaints I keep hearing about 677, it wouldn't hurt... but I think you might do best to pick up a vial of L. brevis. I made a starter with Wyeast's L. brevis and it imparted substantial acidity to my most recent Berliner weisse within only a few days.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-51002912035593882982014-08-13T20:52:12.754-04:002014-08-13T20:52:12.754-04:00I am planning a Berliner Weisse soon. Wish I would...I am planning a Berliner Weisse soon. Wish I would have read these posts before I bought the White Lab 677. I was going to do a 1qt starter 7 days before brewing, but after reading Mike's post <i>"I was recently told that growth is correlated with lactic acid production, so maybe a big starter isn't the answer?" </i>, i wonder if i should skip the start and just pitch the vial at say 100F. I plan on using Wyeast German Ale yeast and also pitch a vial of White Labs Brett L. maybe a few days after primary fermentation slows. Does anyone have any further thoughts on skipping the Lacto starter?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05945335342975213575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-38743988212104945192014-08-12T14:42:05.546-04:002014-08-12T14:42:05.546-04:00Wanted to add my most recent 100%-lacto experience...Wanted to add my most recent 100%-lacto experience to this. <br /><br />I did a combo of Wyeast's Lacto pack and the WL 677. I have only used Wyeast's in the past. I did a 500ml starter that I steeped up to 1L, fermented the starter warm for 4 days (~85F). <br /><br />I pitched this into my wort and fermented in a controlled chamber at 85F for 2 days that I stepped up to 95F for 5 more days. No beer yeast added.<br /><br />My gravity is now reading 1.000 on my hydrometer. pH is around 3.8-4<br />I get no sourness in the taster. <br /><br /> My intention was to add Brett Trois to finish but I will likely have to rethink this if that hydrometer reading is correct. Considering adding some boiled malt extract and/or maltodextrinAlexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01020656206202956474noreply@blogger.com