tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post971200504924186355..comments2024-02-23T15:34:32.816-05:00Comments on The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog: Craft Beer Bottle Sizes (Revisited)The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-59305723135203232572014-10-14T12:19:51.907-04:002014-10-14T12:19:51.907-04:00Yea, I undoubtedly agree with the article. When a ...Yea, I undoubtedly agree with the article. When a brewer chooses to save money on packaging by going with a larger bottle AND increases the price per ounce, that's just plain old price gouging. I'm extremely disappointed in the response of Brooklyn Brewery to the point that I no longer wish to retail any of their Bomber bottle's. WillofGod72https://www.blogger.com/profile/15143464609962728579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-1157129273715776302013-03-27T19:25:29.328-04:002013-03-27T19:25:29.328-04:00Along the same lines, what really gets to me is ho...Along the same lines, what really gets to me is how much breweries are charging for a growler.<br /><br />I went to a local brewery the other day and they were filling growlers for $20! There is less beer in a growler then a 6-pack and typically less overhead for a brewery then bottling. <br /><br />In the end, it is up to the consumer to refuse to purchase products at certain price points. If the consumer continues to buy, then the brewery will continue to sell them higher. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-4956320278346088372013-03-19T16:53:50.623-04:002013-03-19T16:53:50.623-04:00I, too would love more options as a consumer. I lo...I, too would love more options as a consumer. I loved that Rouge started using 8 oz bottles, and long for the day that I can get great Belgian styles in cans/small bottles. (Hilliard's Saison 16oz 4 pack is a great step in this direction)<br /><br />The problem with small bottles is the packaging/labor/equipment cost for breweries (especially new and small ones) and the non-justifying price consumers are willing to pay for it. (Josh G below covered this well)<br /><br />Having said that, the brewery I work at will be bottling our first retail-packaged beer in two days. 33cl (11.2 oz) bottles filled via beer guns and capped by hand.<br /><br />I wager some people will see us as price gougers for NOT offering big bottles.<br /><br />I'm really glad 32oz growlers are starting to take off in my market. I wonder when people will start asking me to fill 16 oz flip tops in the taproom.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11893207138579444536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-19063183171739654532013-03-17T19:47:09.509-04:002013-03-17T19:47:09.509-04:00Clearly some of these barrel aged beers have addit...Clearly some of these barrel aged beers have additional costs (e.g. purchase of used whiskey barrels, additional warehouse space), but not all of the high priced 22oz. bottles fall into this category. <br /><br />I wandered into my local liquor store and wanted to try something new. I did not want to buy a whole 6 pack. I picked up a 22oz. bottle from a well know OR brewery. It cost 8 bucks. <br /><br />I really enjoyed the beer, but I can't justify the cost. My dollars can go much further with great local (Boulder) beers.<br /><br />I just started home brewing 8 months ago. I would rather spend 50 bucks and have 5 gallons of deliciousness. <br /><br />MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-11533926995495635422013-03-15T22:52:45.005-04:002013-03-15T22:52:45.005-04:00Dennis, my price comparison was between a single 1...Dennis, my price comparison was between a single 12 oz bottle and a bomber of the same beer. The bomber was still up to 50% more expensive. When I did the comparison using six-pack prices the difference was even more pronounced, about twice as much per ounce for the bomber.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-45612043926321789622013-03-15T15:17:18.857-04:002013-03-15T15:17:18.857-04:00seems obvious why 22oz is more expensive. it is t...seems obvious why 22oz is more expensive. it is the smallest "package" on the shelf. I can't buy a 12oz beer. I can buy a 6 pack (72oz), or a half keg or a keg. as those packages go up in size i pay less per ounce. i would assume that if I could buy a single 12oz at my grocery store that it would be more per ounce than a 22oz of the same beer. dennisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-9550996865355720992013-03-14T23:49:19.167-04:002013-03-14T23:49:19.167-04:00Man that kickstart deal looks pretty awesome, has ...Man that kickstart deal looks pretty awesome, has anyone actually used one yet?? Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06544448240565789972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-53180182598654559482013-03-14T23:31:16.856-04:002013-03-14T23:31:16.856-04:00I do agree with the higher price can be frustratin...I do agree with the higher price can be frustrating when calculated out. <br /><br />I am a brewer at very small brewery (10 bbl system, 50 bbl fermentation soon to be 70) in Quebec, Canada. <br />We have a 4 headed filler ( Still 10K$) and the larger format (660ml) bottle allows us to fill about 125 cases in a full day of bottling 2 brewers and 2 volunteers.<br /><br />Without the budget for a new bottler right now this allows us to almost be profitable with 2 full days dedicated to packaging. <br />We would not be a able to be a brewery if this was not the format we used. <br /><br />Also depending on the beer some breweries avoid running bugs through their main bottling line, this will be our case in the summer/fall. Cheaper and slower bottlers.<br /><br />Anyway, I do agree with your point and its nice to see people having strong opinions on the subject. <br /><br />Cheers, <br />ScottScottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-57468358848035550312013-03-14T19:24:29.520-04:002013-03-14T19:24:29.520-04:00I recently saw something similar for growlers went...I recently saw something similar for growlers went up on Kickstarter. Seems like a great idea, if it works well! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1732077870/the-tapit-cap-the-beer-growlers-best-friendThe Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-35824699463932488012013-03-14T14:58:22.902-04:002013-03-14T14:58:22.902-04:00I cannot agree with you more. I have people give m...I cannot agree with you more. I have people give me bottles that I can fill with tasty homebrew and I tend to keep all the good 12 (and flip tops) and recycle the rest. When my friends and I do wind up using any 22s, they are always the last to be drank. I usually tend to not even buy the 22s or 750ml just because it's not as practical. I'm gonna head over to NYT comments and post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-69313546972334409242013-03-14T14:51:35.797-04:002013-03-14T14:51:35.797-04:00There must be someone out there developing a consu...There must be someone out there developing a consumer-sized anti-winesaver (pun intended?) that repressureizes with CO2 and caps bottles.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17128326902294737240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-50448244167752463632013-03-13T23:49:14.006-04:002013-03-13T23:49:14.006-04:00Nobody has recognized the obvious. This is the sam...Nobody has recognized the obvious. This is the same type of marketing currently in use by every distributor and macrobrewery in America. It's about saturating shelf space and driving out the competition.<br /><br />Why does beer come in 12 oz 6 packs, 16 oz 6 packs, 24 oz cans, 32 oz bottles, 6 pack glass bottles, 6 pack metal bottles, 12 pack cans, 12 pack bottles, 15 pack cans, 18 pack cans, 20 pack cans, 24 pack cans, 30 pack cans and baby kegs? The SAME BEER COMES IN ALL THOSE SIZES AT ABOUT EVERY GAS STATION I'VE BEEN TO.<br /><br />It's to force out competition. <br /><br />Small brewers, whether we attach the craft label or not, are subject to the whims of the distributors who ultimately lay out the planograms for the stores. <br /><br />By adding single bottles, 4 pack cans, 4 pack bottles, 750 bottles, etc.. you can squeeze just a teensy bit more shelf space from the 30/24/12/16/6 packs around it. <br /><br />Marketing and business. If it was about the consumer, we wouldn't have the third party distributor system to begin with and be able to end all this nonsense once and for all. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-12067152016606115112013-03-13T15:02:50.043-04:002013-03-13T15:02:50.043-04:00Mike,
I concur with your personal preference for ...Mike,<br /><br />I concur with your personal preference for a 12 oz. bottle. Lord knows I have 22 oz and 750 ml bottles sitting around my place for months (even years) at a time waiting for the right group of like-palated individuals to come over to Casa de HolzBrew. That being said, I have no ethical objections to the sale of beer in 22 oz. bottles to the public. This is basic supply and demand at work. If craft brewers can sell their wares at heighten prices to their consumers then that is their option. However, as consumers in a capitalistic society we vote with our wallets. If consumers want smaller bottled brews then they need to stop buying the big bottles at inflated prices. Very few things will get a business owners attention like dropping revenues. Just my thoughts.<br /><br />Keep brewing and blogging. Cheers!<br /><br />Holz HolzBrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08551917356646521925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-42163787580263716492013-03-13T12:38:11.416-04:002013-03-13T12:38:11.416-04:00I very much agree.
When I am bottling my more co...I very much agree. <br /><br />When I am bottling my more complex, expensive to brew, or interesting to age homebrew I try to mostly use 12oz so Ill get more chances to try it. The only reason I use large format bottles for my fancy beers are for the more heavy duty bottles with sours, which pains me. Other than that functional need, which could be sufficed with a small belgian bottle like russian river's, I use bombers for sharing and risky experimental beers that smell funny so I dont want to waste time bottling if it might not be good. :)<br /><br />Ive found comparing my practice to industry quite ironic.<br /><br />The culture of industry is upsetting, I truly hope it will change to providing a smaller format where we can, as you said, watch a beer change.<br /><br />I also appreciate your point about alcoholism and over consumption. I have some rare growler fills Ive been saving because I dont want to drink it alone. The same goes for almost every sour in my cellar, besides the aforementioned RR.Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06544448240565789972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-48933501568620935322013-03-13T10:16:02.469-04:002013-03-13T10:16:02.469-04:00What's an oz?What's an oz?Gusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-5508296914501218542013-03-13T07:49:36.506-04:002013-03-13T07:49:36.506-04:00DC has a similar law. You can apply for an exempti...DC has a similar law. You can apply for an exemption, but I believe the local Whole Foods is still taping together two-packs of Orval to meet the minimum ounces requirement.<br /><br />Thanks for chiming in everyone, glad I'm not crazy.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-85960620589005085682013-03-13T07:48:10.337-04:002013-03-13T07:48:10.337-04:00I'd also like to add that routinely pay about ...I'd also like to add that routinely pay about 20-30 bucks for a mix-a-six for the typical beers I drink. I have no problem paying a premium price for premium beer. I just hate to be forced to buy more beer than I'm willing to drink.Eric Branchaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15107351232072273246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-9402104021328149782013-03-13T07:45:55.707-04:002013-03-13T07:45:55.707-04:00Here was my response to the article:
I have been ...Here was my response to the article:<br /><br />I have been a craft beer drinker since my college days in the mid-90's. Even in my younger days when I could put away a sixer of craft brew in one night, I would always choose to mix-a-six of 12 oz bottles whenever the option was afforded to me. I rarely drink the same beer twice, and I'm always on the lookout for a new experience.<br /><br />The trend towards larger bottles is frustrating to me as a craft beer lover. Between my career and my family, I rarely find the time to enjoy more than 12 ounces of beer in a session (especially when it comes to the more potent craft beers). More and more often, I am stuck buying a large bottle of something I really want to try, only to dump half of it down the drain. It is rare to find a brew that is good enough for me to waste that kind of money more than once. If they were packaged in 12 ounce bottles I would be much more likely to make a return visit, even if it meant paying a premium price for a brewer's top-shelf/limited-release selections.Eric Branchaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15107351232072273246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-59334364106314161322013-03-12T21:54:37.085-04:002013-03-12T21:54:37.085-04:00Interesting development with the police not wantin...Interesting development with the police not wanting you to sell smaller portions. When I lived in Oakland CA, an actual law went into effect that corner stores (but not places like Whole Foods, hello lobbying) could no longer sell single 12 oz bottles of beer. You had to buy a whole 6-pack. But you could still buy a 40 of malt liquor. The justification was "to reduce public drunkenness". Huh?<br /><br />Best of luck with your own version of ridiculous laws! Aaron & Hilaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06299866005714519768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-63474616539157410652013-03-12T18:47:59.508-04:002013-03-12T18:47:59.508-04:00Pricing is also an issue that's going to be la...Pricing is also an issue that's going to be largely self-correcting as the irrational exuberance phase of craft beer consumption starts to wind down, which highlights the two separate issues here.<br /><br />I don't really like bombers, but I *really* don't like $10 bombers.Derekhttp://igglesblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-80260621886551456662013-03-12T18:40:47.084-04:002013-03-12T18:40:47.084-04:00I would also hope that you get a reply from Mr. Ol...I would also hope that you get a reply from Mr. Oliver and in that reply he covers the second portion of the article which he did not touch. <br /><br />Piggy backing of your comments Mike, it would be great if he could share his take.<br /><br />Will this change anything? Probably not but it at least makes for good discussion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182397075953218149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-7832706632077093812013-03-12T17:24:30.486-04:002013-03-12T17:24:30.486-04:00Agreed on the current market price for six-packs, ...Agreed on the current market price for six-packs, which is why I called out consumers in addition to producers. As craft beer drinkers, we need to be willing to pay for the quality of the beer, not the bottle! Some of the blame lies with retailers as well, when I talked to Gabe Fletcher of Anchorage Brewing last year he was incensed by the high markups his bottles have been receiving compared to his intended retail price.<br /><br />I don’t buy the carbonation argument. There are sturdy 375 ml bottles available now (see the <a href="http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/375-ml-belgian-style-beer-bottles-cork-finish.html" rel="nofollow">Russian River, Lost Abbey, and North Coast joint design</a>). Anyway, I’d guess less than 1% of the craft beers packaged in corked and caged 750s have high enough carbonation to require thicker glass for safety (I doubt bombers hold any more pressure than standard bottles).<br /><br />I certainly understand the position the market has put many small/artisan breweries are in, especially those operating with simple bottling lines where half-sized bottles mean double the labor. My bigger complaint is for breweries that have 12 oz bottling lines, and still choose to put these beers in larger format bottles. I don’t think it would take much to change things, look at beers like the Jolly Pumpkin Reservas, bottled in generic 12 oz bottles, while their “standard” siblings are in 750s.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-574726936233914282013-03-12T17:15:16.862-04:002013-03-12T17:15:16.862-04:00A good friend just returned home from a Vermont tr...A good friend just returned home from a Vermont trip. He visited The Alchemist, Hill Farmstead and Lawsons. <br /><br />12 Cans of Heady Topper<br />3 Hill Farmstead Bottles<br />1 Bottle from Lawsons <br /><br />70 bucks about for it all.<br /><br />These beers barely make it off the packaging line before they are sold out.<br /><br />In my local liquor store there are beers on the shelf I know I will never try because I refuse to pay $30 for a beer that I am not even sure if I am going to like!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182397075953218149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-73195214602398368652013-03-12T13:38:34.683-04:002013-03-12T13:38:34.683-04:00Mike, I agree with you a 100%. I think he really ...Mike, I agree with you a 100%. I think he really missed the second point of the article, which as others said, could have been put forth a bit better.<br /><br />He lost me when he said that “half the internet would disappear tomorrow if [The New York Times] ceased to exist.” Oh brother...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-86326565408344864602013-03-12T12:43:19.563-04:002013-03-12T12:43:19.563-04:00We can talk pure numbers or relations to other ind...We can talk pure numbers or relations to other industries or even morals, such as limiting alcohol intake.<br /><br />Personally I just want a choice. Being new to the craft beer & homebrew scene (~8 years), I just want to try as many new and exciting brews as possible. There are so many options available to us! This is why breweries serve tasting flights; so that patrons, such as myself, can find a beer they enjoy from a lineup and not commit to 20oz of something they dislike. I hate the idea of contemplating a deeply complex beer and then putting the majority of it down the drain due to the perishable nature of the product. If all you need is 3oz in order to get a feel for the beer, how many friends would it take to efficiently use a 750ml bottle? (Answer is 8) What if you’d like to find a good food pairing? Do you open a new bomber every day for a week when cooking dinner or end up making 8 meals in a day just to get the most from the single bottle? It’s just plain and simple waste. <br /><br />However, the marketing correlation of beer and wine in large bottles is also fraught with poor logic. Treat it like a wine to justify the bottle size, but a fine red will still last and evolve over a few days allowing you to get the most of it.<br /><br />You can treat it like a scotch and the complex flavors the spirit offers, but a scotch will be preserved after a few weeks on your shelf. Like a scotch, we can understand expensive processes and more wasteful packaging (smaller portions) influencing the price per ounce. But really, who wants to commit to 750ml of 25 year old highland without knowing what they’re putting hundreds of dollars into? I’d rather get an overpriced pour at a bar than buy the bottle outright. Same thing with beer. Smaller bottles allow us, as consumers, to sample the breadth of product a brewery has to offer and then find something to purchase over and over again.<br /><br />With that being said, I bought my first ever bomber this weekend at DogFishHead. I wanted to sample the brew but it was not available on tap or in small bottles, so I was without an option. Hopefully I enjoy/appreciate it because if I don’t, then I’ll be less inclined to purchase their more expensive brews regardless of the allure. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com