tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post6262068718613921666..comments2024-02-23T15:34:32.816-05:00Comments on The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog: Souring a Beer with Acid Malt - Ithaca Brute StyleThe Mad Fermentationist (Mike)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-55087854644261735452017-02-20T11:29:19.584-05:002017-02-20T11:29:19.584-05:00ok. Thank you!ok. Thank you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-79045164874160997542017-02-20T11:27:29.502-05:002017-02-20T11:27:29.502-05:00I'd go ~.5 lbs maltodextrin, less risky, easie...I'd go ~.5 lbs maltodextrin, less risky, easier to deal with.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-90061391115184319242017-02-20T08:53:26.146-05:002017-02-20T08:53:26.146-05:00thank you mike, you're very kind and i disturb...thank you mike, you're very kind and i disturb you one last time: could be a valid remedy/improvement for the beer i've made to add now some starches in the secondary..i could add some maize starch in solution. Well, hoping that the pedio i should have in the bugs added via bottle dregs will be there, and healthy enough, to work on that starches.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-24269323635925059412017-02-20T08:36:50.274-05:002017-02-20T08:36:50.274-05:00Correct. Wild Brews suggests the same thing on pag...Correct. Wild Brews suggests the same thing on page 144, "The lactic acid producing bacteria require the starch, present in the adjunct grains, to produce their requisite byproducts...Any beer that requires lactic acid development can benefit from some starch."<br /><br />Not sure how "huge" the amount of starch that is extracted by a turbid mash actually is. I haven't seen a carbohydrate profile for a traditional lambic wort. The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-52255435210320945002017-02-20T08:05:23.137-05:002017-02-20T08:05:23.137-05:00I think i must re-read your book once again.. :) i...I think i must re-read your book once again.. :) i had some confusion about brett and starches. So the huge amount of starches that comes out from a turbid mash needs a heavy and healthy culture of pedio to generate a the finale dryness of a lambic while, for example, a turbid mash followed by inoculation of sacc + Brett but without bactieria would end in a low-attenuated beer.<br /><br />I've checked the thermometer and it's ok, for the future i'll follow your suggestion to insert sauermalz from the beginning of the mash and, second, i'll exclude m27 that, as well as belle, it's devastating and leaves the desert behind him. I've read somewhere that belle (and i suspect m27 too) it's a sacc cerivisiae ssp. diasticus cabable of dextrine breakdown...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-34797836965120383382017-02-19T21:06:21.335-05:002017-02-19T21:06:21.335-05:00To ferment dextrins Brett produces alpha-glucosida...To ferment dextrins Brett produces alpha-glucosidase. It has limited activity up to 9-glucose molecule dextrins. Some Pediococcus isolates ARE capable of starch breakdown, which may make the component sugars accessible to Brett. The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-19613296983786710292017-02-19T12:25:02.539-05:002017-02-19T12:25:02.539-05:00yes, i'm suspecting some thermometer issue too...yes, i'm suspecting some thermometer issue too, i'll do the check. One thing to clarify: you say that not even brett is capable of starch fermentation. But brett eats starches in the end, you mean it first break them and then ferments the simple derived in a much more longer time? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-50365210429290016832017-02-19T08:50:06.360-05:002017-02-19T08:50:06.360-05:00Wow, especially given the hot mash I wouldn't ...Wow, especially given the hot mash I wouldn't have predicted that. Next time you could try starting with the acid malt in there, not giving time at the proper pH for the whole mash to convert. <br /><br />Starch fermentation would be unlikely, given that not even Brett is capable of that. Don't know anything about M27, but certainly sounds like Belle in terms of high attenuation.<br /><br />The only other suggestion I have is to calibrate your thermometer, make sure it reads 100C in boiling water.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-70785968161943538132017-02-19T05:14:13.983-05:002017-02-19T05:14:13.983-05:00i've done a saison in this fashion. It's i...i've done a saison in this fashion. It's in the primary from one week. Mashed at 71°c (20 minutes and then added the sauermalz for additional 30 minutes) good efficiency (about 70%) but i don't have made the test for starch conversion. The final ph and the mash-out was 4.5, i tought it was a good place to start. Yeast was m27 (belgian ale from mangrove's yeast that seems to perform really like french saison plus slurry from my previous saison with dupont strain and a variety of bugs in there). <br /><br />Now i regret that i didn't made iodine test because in 6 days gravity is dropped to 1003 from 1046. So i must suspect that conversion was completely done in the mash despite of the high amount of sauermalz or maybe the m27 (pretty much like belle saison) it's capable of eating dextrine and maybe even....starches???Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-10199765543913144862016-11-03T10:50:15.277-04:002016-11-03T10:50:15.277-04:00You could certainly dilute with RO/distilled water...You could certainly dilute with RO/distilled water by 50% to get closer to DC water, but a pH meter and extra acidualted malt as needed would be a better option.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-25219442485129003532016-11-02T12:06:34.652-04:002016-11-02T12:06:34.652-04:00i have 200 ppm of bicarbonate in my water, it'...i have 200 ppm of bicarbonate in my water, it's quite hard. Don't know exactly about Washington DC water but if i'm correct somewhere i've read that you have about 100ppm of bicarbonate in your tap water. Is it correct?<br /><br />I fear that there's too much buffering capacity in my tap water for this tecnique and i'm willing to use another water for this beer. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-13289671844338639132014-03-26T19:52:21.034-04:002014-03-26T19:52:21.034-04:00Yep, most likely conversion issues. A variety of B...Yep, most likely conversion issues. A variety of Bretts isn't a bad idea, but you may have to resort to Beano or enzymes if the bugs don't get the job done.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-51301169945163830212014-03-26T06:15:23.537-04:002014-03-26T06:15:23.537-04:00This is an old thread but i brewed 2 beers with 20...This is an old thread but i brewed 2 beers with 20% and 40% acid malt, so I still like to post/ask something. the fermentation is with only brett drie. problem is that 10 days into the fermentation the yeaast stalled at 1.030. the beer doesn't taste sweet at all. I added the acid malt at the beginning of the mash so i'm thinking the conversion didn't go so well. I mashed quite low though. 66 C for well over an hour. <br /><br />about the taste: acidity is there, but covered up by the full body of the beer. i'm probably pitching brett b from wyeast to try to get more larger sugars to be eaten by the competing bretts. hope it wil work out fine.<br /><br />am i missing something else maybe?Matteahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18022783474627935901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-2487904191473900322012-03-19T08:29:21.475-04:002012-03-19T08:29:21.475-04:00I'd like to add that I've recently done a ...I'd like to add that I've recently done a quick sour saison in this fashion. Before fermentation the pH was around 4.0. Now that fermentation is over it's at about 3.5. I split the batch between ECY03 and a grown up Dupont culture from a bottle. The ECY03 cruised through the wort in record time for me. The dupont half is still going. I may add some 3711 to the fermentor to hopefully get it to finish up. I would like to bottle the two blended after bottling about a 12 pack of each separate. <br /><br />The best way I can describe the sourness is yoghurt like acidity. It is nothing like the ECY20 soured saison I did with an almost identical recipe (spelt with ECY20 instead of flaked wheat). This might make a refreshing brew with a slight tartness but it's not a truly sour beer that triggers the parotid salivary gland.Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05009643497393565455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-59179084560158697732012-03-14T20:13:47.753-04:002012-03-14T20:13:47.753-04:00Took a ph reading of my Ithaca Brute clone (23% ac...Took a ph reading of my Ithaca Brute clone (23% acid malt) and it's sitting right around 3.9/4.0 and it's tasting nice and tart, but not bite like I typically enjoy.Dank brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08779478546239203006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-71009729636361270442012-03-13T11:40:28.640-04:002012-03-13T11:40:28.640-04:00The buffering capability of your water and malt wi...The buffering capability of your water and malt will certainly play a role in how sour a lightly acidified beer becomes. However, the amount of acid required to make a really SOUR beer is so great that I don't think these things would have a large impact on the final pH.<br />Sounds like a tasty beer, glad it turned out well!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-35150690180122755792012-03-12T19:59:52.777-04:002012-03-12T19:59:52.777-04:00I imagine the results for a given percentage of ac...I imagine the results for a given percentage of acid malt are going to very based on the buffering capacity of your brewing water though, yeah?TGTfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01430572759083495443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-82911428278487837662012-03-12T19:58:10.576-04:002012-03-12T19:58:10.576-04:00Made a blackberry wheat with about 25% acid malt (...Made a blackberry wheat with about 25% acid malt (capped a mash of 7# wheat, 5# vienna with 1# wheat, 1# vienna, 2# acidulated malt - ended up with about 50% of the total sugars so figure about 25% should be from the acid malt). The resultant beer was a great summer drink - very crisp and a lighter mouthfeel than the non-soured batch due to the lower pH (both had a low FG - 1.007), sour but not bracingly so. 4.7 abv, 14 IBUs.<br /><br />Quite pleased. Will likely brew it again this summer.TGTfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01430572759083495443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-82533195721481948832012-02-05T07:09:02.899-05:002012-02-05T07:09:02.899-05:00I followed Weyerman's advice on 8% acid malt t...I followed Weyerman's advice on 8% acid malt to make a Berliner weiss. I was skeptical, but I was really shooting for something like Bell's Oarsman, which is more subtly acidic than a BW. I used 9.5% acid malt. I did not find the approach sufficient even for the subtle acidity I was going for. I would not have commented on any sourness in a blind tasting.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01234888179341561773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-80756984388869322682012-02-04T22:11:27.492-05:002012-02-04T22:11:27.492-05:00Yep, pitch English yeast (preferably Whitbread), l...Yep, pitch English yeast (preferably Whitbread), let it ramp up into the 80s, and then crash chill when it gets close to 1.030. Then rack and pitch a big starter of Brett Drie (White Labs will be releasing it as Brett Brux Trois this summer). Ithaca uses light toast French oak spirals, but cubes would work fine as well.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-21321286525537445982012-02-04T15:58:20.250-05:002012-02-04T15:58:20.250-05:00So if I wanted to replicate Ithaca brute's sty...So if I wanted to replicate Ithaca brute's style for fermentation I'd pitch some English yeast in primary and secondary with Brett C and oak chips?dank brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00012119743727073280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-19936968525298326322012-02-03T18:35:13.438-05:002012-02-03T18:35:13.438-05:00Shockingly 1.016ish. Good luck!Shockingly 1.016ish. Good luck!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-2859895042151429572012-02-03T17:39:45.670-05:002012-02-03T17:39:45.670-05:00what is the final gravity of Brut?
I just picke...what is the final gravity of Brut? <br /><br />I just picked up ingredients to try something very similar to a Brut clone although the aged hops I could get were Vanguard and Palisade. Planning on fermenting it with ECY03 Farmhouse Brett since I have a nice yeast cake of that ready to be used. Recipe seems similar to Brewcrew76's but with 19% acid malt.Dank brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08779478546239203006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-30484875965529495852012-01-27T15:51:51.601-05:002012-01-27T15:51:51.601-05:00Just listened to the recent BN podcast with Jeff O...Just listened to the recent BN podcast with Jeff O'Neill - it sounds like Peekskill is going to be one amazing place. Just the brewery/pub set up sounds incredible.<br /><br />Also, I drank one of my acid-malt sours last night (13% of the grist) and, while I think it is a good beer, I found it lacks complexity. It was pretty sour, but I don't know how much was the acid malt and how much was the cranberries, but I couldn't help thinking that it needed a little citrus flavor to 'brighten it up'. Curious to see how yours turns out.Jim Lemirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000051293978203511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-23434429490758665042012-01-25T16:26:19.668-05:002012-01-25T16:26:19.668-05:00Excellent, easy stop for me on the way to Dayton. ...Excellent, easy stop for me on the way to Dayton. Congrats! Only had a couple beers from Jackie O's, but they have all been good.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.com