tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post3045550737637198145..comments2024-02-23T15:34:32.816-05:00Comments on The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog: Sour Old Ale (Quick Oud Bruin?)The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-41947186512909276772016-01-25T04:14:05.911-05:002016-01-25T04:14:05.911-05:00ok. Thank you! Once again i've to say that i r...ok. Thank you! Once again i've to say that i really appreciate your blog and your book. I think that, of all the brewing book that i've read, it's by far the one by inspires me the most. Bye.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-85879779888478379382016-01-23T07:55:43.185-05:002016-01-23T07:55:43.185-05:00You can certainly use a Belgian strain, but the es...You can certainly use a Belgian strain, but the esters/phenols (and oak) aren't usually prominent parts of the oud bruin "style." Not to say that they won't improve the beer if you aren't concerned with guidelines! The malt bill is the more important change, and yous looks excellent! Best of luck!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-2564909623450488272016-01-22T06:13:18.794-05:002016-01-22T06:13:18.794-05:00Hi Mike, i'd like to use this recipe and techn...Hi Mike, i'd like to use this recipe and technique as a general inspiration but i'm trying to optain a more evident belgian character (you describe this inbetween an oud bruin and an old ale). The idea is doing sour worting but replacing s04 with a classic belgian yeast (e.g. wyeast 3522). The other change would be the caramel malt, in my grain bill i'd use caramunich 80 for a sensible amount (9%). Grain bill would be pils (60%), munich (26%), caramunich (9%), melanoidin (3), carafa III dehusked (1,5%). Some heavy toasted oak note it's another idea..<br /><br /> I think at liefmans goudenband as the model with its the delicate lactic, the big malty and dark tone notes and the balanced sweetness.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17340456446165409484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-1273064761763836652014-09-04T10:32:47.668-04:002014-09-04T10:32:47.668-04:00Sounds like a good plan. Pasteurizing is something...Sounds like a good plan. Pasteurizing is something I very rarely do. Only helps if your goal is to prevent further acidification or preserve some sweetness. The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-88131960688937857632014-09-03T19:57:58.030-04:002014-09-03T19:57:58.030-04:00Hi Mike. Love your book- I spent the holiday weeke...Hi Mike. Love your book- I spent the holiday weekend reading it! I'm thinking of brewing a very low IBU wort, pitching some commercial lactobacillus, and then after a few days pitching some brett. Hopefully letting the lacto continue doing it's thing will add some more complex sourness over a couple of months. I'm not concerned about "contaminating" my gear as I already have a dedicated set for sours. Can I skip the pasteurization step or is there some reason (other than maintaining clean gear) that you would advice pasteurizing the wort?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06957269911418378891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-35188715482686152042014-01-25T07:59:41.685-05:002014-01-25T07:59:41.685-05:00The only thing to be careful of with that techniqu...The only thing to be careful of with that technique is not letting the pH drop too low. If you get the wort much below 3.5 before the ale yeast gets going, it could have a sluggish, incomplete, or off fermentation.<br /><br />I'd suggest avoiding the White Labs Lacto. It is pretty attenuative, but doesn't produce enough acidity in my experience.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-40276494908914932332014-01-23T22:37:54.832-05:002014-01-23T22:37:54.832-05:00Hi Mike
I really enjoy your site and am looking f...Hi Mike<br /><br />I really enjoy your site and am looking forward to your book.<br /><br />I am thinking of mashing then putting all of the wort into a 5 gallon carboy then keeping it at 120 degrees for a couple of days on lacto and then boiling and fermenting with safale 05 at room temperature.<br /><br />Is there a reason I shouldn't do this? I haven't read about anyone doing it on the internet. What do you think the outcome will be?<br /><br />ZachAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15545467668626229593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-12494300688515060102013-10-29T10:06:50.508-04:002013-10-29T10:06:50.508-04:00Hey Mike,
I recently tried this method and had som...Hey Mike,<br />I recently tried this method and had some interesting results. I cultured what i thought was just lacto off some grain and after two days the sour portion had out preformed the clean portion in gravity drop.(clean was at 1.030 sour at 1.015, OG 1.050) So i am assuming i cultured something else other than lacto in my starter. The sour portion tasted amazing before i pasteurized and blended tasted great before going on some oak about a week ago. So my question is about what you think i cultured from the grain? kind of bummed now i didn't save any of the cake from the sour portion. O and temps were around 65 for the ferment in a steady basement environment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445877959323010970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-24658078764170813102013-06-18T18:29:26.193-04:002013-06-18T18:29:26.193-04:00If you had only tried the wild Lacto, I would have...If you had only tried the wild Lacto, I would have said that the "light" hopping was enough to inhibit it. Aging reduces the bitterness of hops, but they are still protective against Lacto (although obviously more so at the high rate that lambic brewers use). However, with the Berliner Blend, which includes yeast as well, I'd guess something like temperature would be a more reasonable culprit. The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-24649524894111592132013-06-18T15:27:47.318-04:002013-06-18T15:27:47.318-04:00I tried to do something similar but it didn't ...I tried to do something similar but it didn't work out. Wanted to try it out on a 1 gallon batch, did two 200ml sour starters with DME and kept them at 38C (100F) for 3-4 days. Got great white fluffy pellicle and got very tart. <br /><br />I then boiled up 2 gallon of DME wort, lightly hopped with aged hops, cooled to 38C and then pitched the sour starter into 1 gallon and half a tube of white labs Berlinner Weisse blend into the other.<br /><br />Nothing happened. After 4-5 days there was still nothing except a feint, odd smell but little else. Only thing that comes to mind is that I might have read the temp wrong and baked all the bugs. I'll try it again but cool much further, pitch and then bring back up to 38C...Stefan Wiswedelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05096665469026471290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-86666667975299845482012-08-31T17:20:19.486-04:002012-08-31T17:20:19.486-04:00I haven't tried it, but I think this would be ...I haven't tried it, but I think this would be a great technique for making a hoppy sour. Haven't tried this method again but I may play with it a few more times to see if I can find a good way to make a quick sour beer that I am happy with.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-52998705902589983222012-08-31T10:26:03.153-04:002012-08-31T10:26:03.153-04:00Mike,
Your documented experiences have been a grea...Mike,<br />Your documented experiences have been a great resource for me as I've progressed as a homebrewer. I just came across this post the other day, and it's inspired me to attempt this method in an upcoming batch. Have you played around with the method any since this post? I know you mentioned that the lacto didn't produce anything overly complex and NG typically added fruit or other elements to beers produced this way. Considering that, do you think this would be a good way to do a dry-hopped sour?A.J.http://www.wortandyeast.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-27103581586626365792012-01-15T12:37:53.599-05:002012-01-15T12:37:53.599-05:00Sounds delicious! Hope it turns out well. It may t...Sounds delicious! Hope it turns out well. It may taste a bit more sour after fermentation without the residual sweetness of the wort, but the pH will actually rise slightly as the brewer's yeast work. Always happy when I get people to try it for themselves.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-49319563158573781822012-01-15T12:31:55.243-05:002012-01-15T12:31:55.243-05:00Michael, I actually found this post after buying i...Michael, I actually found this post after buying ingredients based on your "Sour Beer Orientation" article in Nov 2011 BYO, not realizing that was you! Anyway, this thread was very helpful - I decided to go with a commercial pitch of Lacto (WY5335) to ensure I didn't get a heterofermentative variety. I made a 1/2 gallon starter and pitched it among 13 gallons of wort split among 3 carboys, topped up with co2 - for an 11-gallon yield batch. The 3-day starter, held at 93F, the high end of Wyeast's ferment range, soured nicely, as did the wort held at 91F for 2.5 days (53 hours). The wort dropped 3 points (1.053 to 1.050) after souring, partly due to the lower gravity 1.033 starter. To make up for the reduction of gravity, I added 10 ounces of light DME to the boil, and hit the desired 1.057 OG exactly after an 80 minute boil. I was concerned that I would not get the right level of sour, but the hydrometer sample tasted spot on. Can't wait to see how it ends up! I also added 19 oz. of montmorency cherry juice concentrate (Tart is Smart) to 6 gallons of the beer after a couple days of fermentation. I'll be racking to secondary on top of med toast French oak cubes in about a week. Thanks for sharing this recipe!brewsumorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-89535407027332857712011-11-02T22:20:10.121-04:002011-11-02T22:20:10.121-04:00I think the wild strains often have something on t...I think the wild strains often have something on their cultured brothers, they just tend to be less easily predictable.<br /><br />I don't believe lactic acid production generates CO2, so it wouldn't drive the gravity down (meaning that all of that gravity change would be alcohol production). It is pitched post-boil, just a culture they repitch (every time they analyze it there are fewer Brett cells left).The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-7990043877524397352011-11-02T21:37:44.032-04:002011-11-02T21:37:44.032-04:00Thanks for the response, Mike.
Ah, yeah, okay, t...Thanks for the response, Mike. <br /><br />Ah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Trust me, I'd be using lacto cultures but I live in South Korea and we're lucky to get liquid yeasts over here, let alone cultured strains of lacto or Brett. <br /><br /><i>The Bruery does their Berliner Weisse with a nearly complete Lacto fermentation (their culture has a few Brett cells as well) and it drops to ~1.002 in a month.</i><br /><br />Ha, sounds like my kind of beer. But I have to wonder how much of that is sugar turned into alcohol, versus sugar turned into lactic acid. (Since, I assume, they're doing the lactic fermentation after the boil, simultaneous to the alcohol fermentation.) <br /><br />And like I said, it can't be too hard to get it down to 1.004 in a month: I got a pre-boil Berliner Weisse wort down to 1.005 in three days just off lacto alone. (But it was warm, and I assume they're using a cooler temperature.)<br /><br />Man, time to make another Berliner Weisse, I think...gordsellarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465812613427778240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-47687832267042811712011-11-02T11:12:36.180-04:002011-11-02T11:12:36.180-04:00It all depends on what sort of Lacto you have livi...It all depends on what sort of Lacto you have living on your grain. Some strains (heterofermentative) will produce a range of byproducts including CO2 and alcohol, while others (homofermentative) will just produce lactic acid without dropping the gravity much. That is part of the risk with any “spontaneous” fermentation, you can’t be sure exactly what microbes will be at work. The Bruery does their Berliner Weisse with a nearly complete Lacto fermentation (their culture has a few Brett cells as well) and it drops to ~1.002 in a month.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-62456481334745298192011-11-01T22:29:56.544-04:002011-11-01T22:29:56.544-04:00Well, the comments above about lactic acid not aff...Well, the comments above about lactic acid not affecting gravity much puzzle me. Every time I've done a souring with wort preboil, I've taken a gravity reading, and I have each time seen a significant drop in gravity. <br /><br />For the Saison I made yesterday, it was on the order of over 10 points (from 1.065 to 1.050 for an overnight souring ). When I first attempted a Berliner Weisse, I went from 1.030-ish to 1.005-ish. I ended up adding DME and the beer was insanely sour, but also quite fantastic. (The pH was about 3.56 in the end, or at least, that's what my meter measured -- and in fact the pH stayed steady the last day or two of souring, so maybe it was something else going on to affect the gravity?)<br /><br />In both cases, I collected wort, pitched a handful of raw, crushed grain, kept out oxygen as much as possible, and kept it warm to let it sour. <br /><br />I understand lacto has a limit as far as how sour it'll get things. I understand other bugs may be acting. But my results seem to be consistent, at least in my house, and I'm wondering what could explain it. I haven't found anything yet...gordsellarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465812613427778240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-30458696209221910052011-08-15T16:23:29.449-04:002011-08-15T16:23:29.449-04:00Excellent, good luck! Keeping oxygen away from tho...Excellent, good luck! Keeping oxygen away from those starters (and the beer) is a good idea to keep down acetobacer and other aerobic microbes, but shouldn't be a gib deal with a quick pH drop like that.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-16336741097202676862011-08-14T16:44:51.706-04:002011-08-14T16:44:51.706-04:00FWIW, I made 4L worth of lacto starter. I used pil...FWIW, I made 4L worth of lacto starter. I used pils, pale, and wheat malt in 3 different growlers. I kept them in a hot shed with a brewbelt. I used whole, unmashed grains and 400g of dextrose. All three worked about the same. pH had dropped from 7.1 to ~3 within 24 hours. Maybe a slight acetic character (but I might be imagining that), but no mold/funk/off smells. They're going into the wort tonight and I plan on boiling on Wednesday.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-48309063047029728592011-08-13T19:24:00.698-04:002011-08-13T19:24:00.698-04:00Certainly don't have to, but in an old intervi...Certainly don't have to, but in an old interview I heard Peter Boukaert say that he likes a complex starter for growing Lacto (tossing in spent grains etc...) so it won't hurt either.<br /><br />Earlier today I had a sip of the growler I saved of this beer when the rest went onto fruit, it has come a long way in the last year. The sourness seems more integrated and the oak has calmed down, sad I didn't hang onto more.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-21421351122827429802011-08-13T14:25:22.942-04:002011-08-13T14:25:22.942-04:00Is there a reason you need to use crushed grain fo...Is there a reason you need to use crushed grain for the sour starter? It would seem like whole grains would be easier to remove later, although it's probably not enough grain to worry about. I just assumed all the lacto was on the outside of the husk.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-65799167575111949092011-03-04T13:40:41.407-05:002011-03-04T13:40:41.407-05:00Glad to hear it turned out well!Glad to hear it turned out well!The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-57612080995516069962011-03-04T13:26:19.735-05:002011-03-04T13:26:19.735-05:00Well, after a few weeks in the bottle, I have to s...Well, after a few weeks in the bottle, I have to say that the beer turned out pretty well. Almost exactly like I wanted it to. It has great ripe peach and slight malt character in the aroma, the flavor has peach also, but not as strong as the aroma. The lacto fermentation resulted in tart, almost sour profile, which goes great with the peach.<br /><br />I'd drop off a bottle for you if I were on the East coast..Andreihttp://zmievski.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8066877917844499643.post-15633190220674560332011-03-02T08:22:51.808-05:002011-03-02T08:22:51.808-05:00Seems like a good plan, I'd probably go a simi...Seems like a good plan, I'd probably go a similar route if I was doing a sour fruit beer with this technique. <br /><br />To keep the temp up you could do the lightbulbs if you also shielded the fermeter from the light. Alternatively you could get some of those repile ceramic heaters that plug into light sockets. Another idea would be to get a brewbelt that is designed to keep a fermenter warm during winter. Whatever you do you try it out first to make sure you don’t bake the bugs.<br /><br />Good luck.The Mad Fermentationist (Mike)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07379932734747507258noreply@blogger.com